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TOPIC: Application - Swagtiman

Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1392

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Last Edit: 5 years 6 months ago by zooba.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1395

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I didn't mean my comment as a personal attack on you swastiman , I wanna make that very clear.
You seem like a friendly guy who is open to dialogue and I respect that.

As a big history and culture freak , and a dude that has traveled a lot I know that the swastika or sunwheel is an ancient symbol used in many cultures/religions.
When I was walking around Bali I saw swastikas all over the place, and obviously I didn't went all emo over it.
What I find worrying though is that this is a wargame , using the swastika reference in a game like this and thus linking it to violence is nothing but bad taste in my opinion.
It would tarnish the name of our outfit and attract negative attention as I have seen happening in other games.

I know I might sound like a jerk but I wouldn't feel right to keep my mouth shut about this.
Once again , I don't mean this personal.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1396

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First of all, this is nothing against you swasti, it's against your nick.

I have read this discussion with amazement and i have to say i completely agree with Erzfeuer and i feel uncomfortable on playing with someone named "swastiman".

I am a history teacher myself so i think i can say a thing or two about history and the symbolics and "swasti" simply remind me of the word swastika, wich to me, is connected to the nazi's.

Of course you could say that the swastika is an old symbol from different cultures then just the third reich, but the nazi's hijacked it for their own cause so nobody in the western world can really say that they don't connect it with the nazi's. (this is not something i like, but it is the bitter reality).

So i'm sorry mate, but if it was up to me i'd change your name. I find it very inappropriate.

Besides that, welcome to the Mac's and i hope i'll have a lot of fun playing togheter with you.
Last Edit: 5 years 6 months ago by Badvrouw. Reason: removed some grammar mistakes (sorry guys, non native speaker)
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1397

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One last thing to add: I think there might be some background on the national scale in this. This might help understand why I'm so upset and offended.

I often heard from friends and visitors that, for example, scandinavian people are much more relaxed about this as, like in this case of course, germans usually are. It goes so far as that there are scandinavian LARPs using the background of the book "fatherland", using full blown nazi outfits as costumes for an more or less half fun/half educational game. That's no problem there. Over here, you would get REALLY bad press at best and some jailtime in the worst. In scandinavian countries, those things get government funding.

There are voices here who are saying: Hey, no big deal, and I can only assume that's true in their case. This might even apply to spain (I really don't know). But over here, in our land, it IS a big deal. The section on wikitravel about germany and jokes about this topic might give some impression on this.

So, if someone wants to use a word which means to him something glorious and positive, that's fine by me. But if the more prominent meaning of this word over here is something so badly tainted, it gets complicated, and comparing one of the most terrifying dictatorships of history (so much for the freedom background of the NC) with something like fire, a mindless physical effect, makes me greatly uncomfortable. You could get charges for something like that over here. There are hundreds of positive words - why does it have to be the one for the most prominently used symbol of nazism ever? Because one might argue with the historical background, and the original meaning, and that's all good and true: But to say it WASN'T a symbol of nazism and it ISN'T now - that's just plain wrong.

So, why does Erzfeuer elaborate all this gibberish about cultural background and about his stupid country, which is to blame for the whole misuse of the swastika anyway? Well, because there are a lot of people out there, and in this game too, who share this background, and they're not only german. And if Swastiman (gee, I even hesitate to write the name) is not worried about being misjugded because of this, fine for him. But the outfit might be also misjudged - i think it will. If you all don't care that, either: good for you (sincerely). But I guess I'm not that relaxed.

Fuck, I said I made my point, and look at me rambling nonetheless. I'm sorry. As a rather new and rather casual member of the outfit, maybe I'm just out of the line with speaking up so loud anyway. It's your party here, I'm just a guest and I accept that.

Thanks for bearing with me,
peace.
Last Edit: 5 years 6 months ago by Erzfeuer.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1398

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I fully agree with the opinions voiced by Erzfeuer and Badvrouw. I do not know you, but picking that name as an inhabitant of spain with german roots is -at best- tasteless.
You may or not may be familiar with Condor Legion and it's role in the Spanish Civil War and of course, the symbol of Guernica. If you are not, I recommend you read through that and reconsider.

I take it, that you have basic knowledge on the atrocities that happend unter the swastika sign from 1933-1945, but even if, some re-reading would be in order.

It is an easy and futile defense to (correctly) point out its origin and use in other cultures. In this here european/western setting, you cannot sepaerate swastika from Nazis. And I will not tolerate the slightest impression that, either of neo-nazism (don't think you are) or out of sheer stupidity (not so sure about that), any group that I am associated with, tolerates anything like that.

And no, that point is non-negotiable. I am German, historian by education and work in political education. I am in no way let something like tis pass in a silly game, as I would not in real life.

Either change you nick, or one of us will have to look for a new outfit.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1399

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I really didn't think someone would say ANYTHING about my name.
And I will not tolerate the slightest impression that, either of neo-nazism (don't think you are) or out of sheer stupidity (not so sure about that), any group that I am associated with, tolerates anything like that.

This is just a plain lack of respect. Can't someone find something else in the word swastika? I have a lot of japanese friends and we joke a lot about this swastiman thing, the swastika even is part of the japanese IME (keyboard).
but the nazi's hijacked it for their own cause so nobody in the western world can really say that they don't connect it with the nazi's. (this is not something i like, but it is the bitter reality).

Just, what? The republicans have an elephant in their party, and they are responsible for a lot of misery and death. Even if we lived in a world were this was known in EVERY home, I couldn't be mad at someone using an elephant as an icon. (just to explain my point)
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1400

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It's not a lack of respect. Either you are a neonazi or you simply don't understand what this symbol does to people in the western world, wich is quite a stupid choice of name if you ask me.

And you are not seriously comparing the NSDAP to the American Republican party? Dude, i am marxist as fuck, but i don't think the two party's share that much similarities.

Again, this is nothing against you, but against the choice you made when deciding on your name.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1401

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Hello Swastiman and welcome to our boards.

I am MePhizto and I am the outfit leader and founder of the MACS. I have been monitoring this thread for a while now and I think it is safe to say that your name is in fact creating a conflict already. We have a lot German members and as you might have noticed they are all quite upset right now and to be honest most of our members regardless of their origin are quite upset about your name.

We can not afford the risk that the MACS tag will be associated to something that could be seen as Nazi reference. I actually think that we would face the risk of attracting even more people with similar names which (unlike you) are actual Nazis and then everything we have built so far would be ruined.

I do not know you but I am sure that you are a nice guy and all that. But you must try to understand us as well. It does not matter if you are correct about your statements or not. You must understand that people will make that association regardless of facts. I have been into online FPS gaming for many years now and not once have we tolerated something that had a nazi reference or something that could be interpretated as such. Same goes for racsism, being insulting to gay people etc.

So, how can we solve this?

I have been looking at your PS2 stats and I noticed that you are only BR 20. If you create a new character with a more suitable name we can help you reach BR 20 in a day or two because of our teamwork. If not I, or someone else in the outfit, can probably create a new account and give that account to you after we have levelled it up to BR 20. Another solution could be that you send a mail to the PS2 support and they migh be able to change your name.

You will find a lot of nice guys in this outfit and if you are really interested in joining you'd have to change that name. "Why?" you ask. Well, there a two reasons; 1. MACS name will be tarnished 2.If you just read this thread I can already see that at least two people, which I really like and respect, are actually considering leaving the outfit because of this. And as you understand - I can't let that happen.

I really value our members and I also value what we, the MACS, stand for and how we always try to behave when it comes to responding to enemies, griefers etc. I have spent countless of hours telling our members that they should always act in a good manner and that they should do their best to act as gentlemen even if someone tries to provoke them into misbehaving.

If you are not willing to change your name or create a new character then you obviously do not want to be a part of this outfit. It is all up to you really. So I hope you will consider my suggestion so that we can give you a chance to become one of us.

I am looking forward to your reply.

//[MACS] MePhizto
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1402

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It's not a lack of respect. Either you are a neonazi or you simply don't understand what this symbol does to people in the western world,

But I understand what this symbol does to people in the western world: nothing. Since it's harmless.
I continue saying this:
ONE THING in a GROUP OF THINGS doesn't describe said group

It's unfair that you treat me like this just because I don't think a swastika is necessarily nazi.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1404

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Thanks for the answer,

It's sad because I've already made a few mates and all. And it's very friendly that you offered this for leveling and such. I'm very thankful.
Still I think this goes against justice, and I feel like I'm betraying logic by changing my name because a few told they would leave if I was let in.
Thanks again, and see you (anyways) on the battlefield!
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1405

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Thanks for the clarification mephizto, very adequate.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1406

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I think its best we put the argument behind us now, we have all made our points for both sides of the discussion and Mephizto has deliberated on the topic and come to a decision, which is final.

One point though, there is presidence for this sort of thing. Planet side 2 has a naming policy.

planetside.station.sony.com/policies/character_naming.vm

and if you are deemed in breech of this policy it might be possible to get your name changed, as this guy did.

forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?th...haracter-name.51781/
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1407

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I'd just like to start my post with this as well, I respect everyone's opinion here...Madvillain wrote:
I know I might sound like a jerk but I wouldn't feel right to keep my mouth shut about this.

... I'm just a spoiled 21st century teenager here, not a historian, not in any real personal way affected by the nazism that tainted europe, possibly ignorant about specifics of the history of it as well, even though it was discussed at length in school.

But from my point of view it is disrespectful from us as a group to force someone to start over his character with a different name because we're offended by it or afraid it will offend others. People too easily choose to be offended and then force other people to deal with that instead of finding a way to deal with it themselves, imo. It's the cause of too many disagreements in the world today because the offended side wants to force the others to deal with the offense they took. You can choose to be offended by literally anything since offense is taken, never given. (and I sincerely hope noone takes that as me minimizing what the nazis did, I'm just think people like to take offense too easily.) And I think Swastiman made it clear it wasn't his intent to offend anyone.

I'm not going to go on about it, but I think we all agree, whatever our viewpoint, that this is an issue we feel strongly about and not speaking up about it wouldn't feel right. So I thought I needed to expand on my quite short "don't be so touchy"-esque post.
I hope noone takes offense to this post, and I hope we can just go back and have a great time together in-game.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1408

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Thank you Mephisto for that very clear statement. It is the one I hoped for and really expected from aperson like you.
Clear values, clear consequences, but combined with an outstreched hand.

I have no more to ask for and consider this settled. (and it makes me like this outfit a whole lot more!)
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1413

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I honestly thing his name it's not a big deal, but MePhizto's arguments are clear. I just hope you all find a solution for this together. I really want to see Swastiman (or any other name) in the Outfit.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1434

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pieterv wrote:
I'd just like to start my post with this as well, I respect everyone's opinion here...Madvillain wrote:
I know I might sound like a jerk but I wouldn't feel right to keep my mouth shut about this.

... I'm just a spoiled 21st century teenager here, not a historian, not in any real personal way affected by the nazism that tainted europe, possibly ignorant about specifics of the history of it as well, even though it was discussed at length in school.

But from my point of view it is disrespectful from us as a group to force someone to start over his character with a different name because we're offended by it or afraid it will offend others. People too easily choose to be offended and then force other people to deal with that instead of finding a way to deal with it themselves, imo. It's the cause of too many disagreements in the world today because the offended side wants to force the others to deal with the offense they took. You can choose to be offended by literally anything since offense is taken, never given. (and I sincerely hope noone takes that as me minimizing what the nazis did, I'm just think people like to take offense too easily.) And I think Swastiman made it clear it wasn't his intent to offend anyone.

I'm not going to go on about it, but I think we all agree, whatever our viewpoint, that this is an issue we feel strongly about and not speaking up about it wouldn't feel right. So I thought I needed to expand on my quite short "don't be so touchy"-esque post.
I hope noone takes offense to this post, and I hope we can just go back and have a great time together in-game.
Very well said ^^
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1490

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Thanks for standing up for your point of view.

Yesterday I sent an e-mail (dramatizing my situation) and my name has been changed.
But I would also like to add a last thing, and then promising not to talk about it again.

I can understand that some are worried for the tarnishement of the Outfit, being for me the only valid reason I did this, but:
I find it terrible to threaten with leaving because of such a BANALITY, leaving a WHOLE COMMUNITY because of a (proven to be) commonly misunderstood name. For instance Mephisto, demons being symbol of fear for religious people. (Don't get me wrong MePhizto, I'm 1000% okay with you and your name, and I defend your freedom to use it however you want).

And with this I mark the end of this also banal situation, adding that I accept and respect MePhizto's decision.
If anybody wants to talk about this in private it's cool, but I think everyone has put his opinion and I respect that (as long as you're not trying to push it down my throat...).

Larry.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1492

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I am glad you took the effort to fix your name.

Lets put this discussion behind us indeed.
In my experience discussing political views (about freedom of speech for instance) on the internet never did any good to a community´s atmosphere.
In some internet communities the usage of historical references , discussing politics and religion are strictly forbidden to avoid situations like this.
I don´t think we need to go down this road , but now I do understand why they do this.

anywayz , welcome man.
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1495

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Heyho,

My final words, too. That's exactly the point: for some people, it's NOT a banality - that's your point of view. And that's what the discussion was all about. But I appreciate the end of it.

I appreciate the change of name, and i would like to welcome you despite our different views on some things. ;) Looking forward to the game!

Signed,
Erzfeuer
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Application - Swagtiman 5 years 6 months ago #1498

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I think it was awesome of you to change your name. Happy end to a complicated situation. Now lets just play! An extra warm extra welcome SWAGTIMAN...since we put you through this steelbath...surely not a very comfortable position for someone posting an application. I personally think you solved this nicely while at the same time proving yourself a nice decent chap :) ... good fun incoming now
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Last Edit: 5 years 6 months ago by zooba.
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